tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post4779705094720697242..comments2024-02-11T06:57:23.174-05:00Comments on SchansBlog: Prothero's "Religious Literacy"Eric Schansberghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-40576981931977629922012-09-20T08:36:04.066-04:002012-09-20T08:36:04.066-04:00Interesting question Eric...yes, the information i...Interesting question Eric...yes, the information is out there as public domain and it is all over. People choose to be ignorant on the subject so what can be done about that?<br /><br />I think I figured out why they let the Greek gods stay in school...Classical culture was humanist! Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-2400923676105563362012-09-20T08:23:00.574-04:002012-09-20T08:23:00.574-04:00Do you think people have sufficient literacy on Is...Do you think people have sufficient literacy on Islam-- and that ignorance there is dangerous? Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-41012683601983296712012-09-20T07:55:07.989-04:002012-09-20T07:55:07.989-04:00Everyone is practicing a "religion" you ...Everyone is practicing a "religion" you know. In the US, we practice and teach a humanist type which somewhat explains why we now worship freedom over God...even within the Christian church. <br /><br />As for the claim that if I don't understand "religion" (by his definition and standard) I won't understand foreign policy and I will work to limit holy freedom, it sounds like more humanist reasoning. But then maybe it solely depends on which religion I would be seeking to better understand ;) We see from history that embracing the Judeo Christian value system maximized our ability to experience and extend freedom and also made us highly prosperous as well as benevolent (immigration) Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-30912848807608804242012-09-20T06:44:20.895-04:002012-09-20T06:44:20.895-04:00I only touch on this briefly in the review, but he...I only touch on this briefly in the review, but he argues that ignorance about religion is "not good"-- both in a subjective, "you oughta know stuff like this", general education sort of way AND if you don't know stuff like this, you won't understand foreign policy, you'll work to limit freedom and religion, etc. Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-54171973094972025332012-09-19T22:53:36.762-04:002012-09-19T22:53:36.762-04:00So, you agree with me then! There is nothing instr...So, you agree with me then! There is nothing instrinsically wrong or dangerous about the practice itself and it did work well for a considerable portion of our history; possible caveat may be 'bible illiteracy'. Did you know Protheros defines himself as 'religiously confused' per Wikipedia? So you have the religiously confused diagnosing the biblically illiterate :0<br /><br />I can sort of buy in to the idea of illiteracy maybe, although still not sure of his definition or even its relevance -- why must people be bible 'literate' to listen to or read some scripture? But I guess he's making his case for *why*they ousted all things Christian (and ended up teaching secular humanism its stead) <br /><br />But any way you look at it, taking it upon ourselves to make things right by eliminating God and the Bible from our public midst was not a good decision.Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-52414126935727544092012-09-19T22:11:42.288-04:002012-09-19T22:11:42.288-04:00We're talking about two different things: what...We're talking about two different things: what the Bible did then and how it would work now. <br /><br />Did it work well in America through the 1960s? Prothero says it was fine for 230 years-- and then a fading, mixed bag after that. Again, the illiteracy does not (nearly) start with the 60s. <br />Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-29414514591652867742012-09-19T21:55:29.858-04:002012-09-19T21:55:29.858-04:00Worrywart is correct!Worrywart is correct!Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-26720182985846833362012-09-19T21:52:23.007-04:002012-09-19T21:52:23.007-04:00Worrywort or worrywart? Any guesses before I chec...Worrywort or worrywart? Any guesses before I check?Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-85444179558274413372012-09-19T21:41:10.991-04:002012-09-19T21:41:10.991-04:00I'm excited about the fact the it got criminal...I'm excited about the fact the it got criminalized, yes. You should be too ;) Libertarians aren't usually worrywarts (nuclear Iran, etc) except when it comes to the bible in publuc schools.<br /><br />The Bible in school worked out perfectly fine in practice for 400+ years, yes or no?Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-11092829384778550132012-09-19T21:30:04.281-04:002012-09-19T21:30:04.281-04:00I'm probably not as excited as you are-- worri...I'm probably not as excited as you are-- worried about how it would work in practice. I'm not excited about cultural Christians leading children in prayer and Bible study.Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-64427606977438371772012-09-19T21:18:01.194-04:002012-09-19T21:18:01.194-04:00You seemed to be debating it though- talking about...You seemed to be debating it though- talking about how dangerous the Bible would be in public schoolJennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-19962772678052035942012-09-19T20:46:08.813-04:002012-09-19T20:46:08.813-04:00Again, Prothero does not debate your point. He mer...Again, Prothero does not debate your point. He merely argues that the cow was way out of the barn by then. Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-8683704547431778212012-09-19T20:18:52.647-04:002012-09-19T20:18:52.647-04:00It's not that the country was becoming 're...It's not that the country was becoming 'religiously illiterate' that is necessarily bothersome; it's the idea that they decided to criminalize the Scriptures and prayer in public arena as an affront to freedom. If anything caused the problem, it was the way the Scriptures were viewed, not that we finally realized how the Bible was infringing upon freedoms so we justifiably criminalized it. And do you know I had a whole year of Humanities in high school taking exams on Greek culture and the Greek gods. How come their gods didn't get kicked out of school? But no one believes in them anymore so I guess that's why it's okJennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-63042082778780420912012-09-19T16:51:20.693-04:002012-09-19T16:51:20.693-04:00He's not primarily concerned with the Bible be...He's not primarily concerned with the Bible being removed. His primary interest is religious literacy and its fade over time. He argues that "taking the Bible out of the schools" was late to the game-- and a minor player-- to his concerns about religious illiteracy. <br /><br />I laid out many of those (other) factors in my review. If they're not sufficient, then you'd have to read the book (it is an easy read and the dictionary and appendix make it worthwhile, aside from his arguments) &/or decide that the review/book is irrelevant to your beliefs. Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-19301028967910650202012-09-19T15:31:04.434-04:002012-09-19T15:31:04.434-04:00He says things like "it became impossible to ...He says things like "it became impossible to discuss religion in most public schools" and "religious literacy was fading" Seems broadly general and nonspecific based on his definitions/interpretations of doctrine or events but I guess I need to read the book. He is saying that's why the Bible ended up being removed? Difficult proving cause/effect there. The court made it illegal because it was identified as a threat to free practice of religion, correct?<br /><br /> I'm all for vouchers in the school system which has nothing to do with outlawing God from our government.Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-3891888038377235842012-09-19T15:00:59.330-04:002012-09-19T15:00:59.330-04:00I didn't catch that the last sentence in the p...I didn't catch that the last sentence in the previous post was a question. Sorry!<br /><br />In the reivew, I gave an overview of his discussion of the 1820-1960 period, where he lays out various contributing factors. One might disagree on the extent-- and which carries more weight among his various explanations-- but I don't see a debate on the existence of those factors. <br /><br />I do not think (at all) that the public square should be "naked" with respect to religion (to use Richard John Neuhaus' famous phrase/book title). Religious views should hold equal weight with other views-- under everything from freedom of speech to freedom of religion. <br /><br />But I am more concerned than most people about casual/civil public expressions of religion. And apparently, I'm one of a few people who favors more freedom (in K-12 education) as the most appropriate way to reach that end. Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-63928965352281183852012-09-19T11:45:08.796-04:002012-09-19T11:45:08.796-04:00You didn't really answer my questions but anyw...You didn't really answer my questions but anyway, do you think sterility or neutrality is possible within a culture? We did not just remove the Bible. When we removed the Bible it was replaced other 'truth' but most egregious is the fact that we found God and his words offensive to our sensibilities of freedom and outlawed him from our collective midst. Only those who view freedom and liberty as the guiding light and saving grace of our republic see it like that. Plus, real freedom for all can only exist within the boundaries of moral behavior. Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-56028177416463877752012-09-19T11:30:33.371-04:002012-09-19T11:30:33.371-04:00I don't consider it bad for liberty, but other...I don't consider it bad for liberty, but others do. Given their preferences (and ours-- and others), it'd be preferable to allow choice/liberty on such matters. Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-36217727741031228662012-09-19T11:29:11.376-04:002012-09-19T11:29:11.376-04:00What evidence do you have that reading the Bible i...What evidence do you have that reading the Bible in public damages Liberty? During the time we read the Bible in public school we were an open and free society, tolerant of other religions and views, protecting free speech, etc. <br /><br />And the specific 'problems with biblical illiteracy' prior to the 1960's are...Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-75525032212551468472012-09-19T11:08:10.047-04:002012-09-19T11:08:10.047-04:00It can be considered bad for liberty because we do...It can be considered bad for liberty because we don't have much liberty in our govt-run K-12 ed system. Fix that-- and this takes care of itself. <br /><br />Prothero makes the point that the problems with Biblical illiteracy started well before the 1960s "kick the Bible out of schools" decisions. <br /><br />My concern on his proposal is whether having the Bible taught in the average public school will be a net plus for the Kingdom of God. It's certainly arguable and I have significant doubts. <br />Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-66636207621680025332012-09-19T10:14:10.897-04:002012-09-19T10:14:10.897-04:00...after, or more likely, because, we kicked them ......after, or more likely, because, we kicked them out...Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-55152726230774710062012-09-19T10:12:02.500-04:002012-09-19T10:12:02.500-04:00It's sad how controversial the Bible has becom...It's sad how controversial the Bible has become; simply reading it in school could be bad for people and offensive to Liberty. Prothero is advocating preaching it or teaching it in school and I'm not sure that was ever done? I know it was read and memorized. <br /><br />Here's an interesting observation which speaks to the toothpaste metaphor: We kicked God/Bible out because a few of us thought it was damaging and then it actually came to be viewed much more so by the general populace *after* we kicked them out. So, yes, it will be difficult to change at this point but not because reading the Bible in school actually *is* damaging, as you seem to be asserting. Does that make sense?Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-4725723957279097782012-09-19T08:50:42.767-04:002012-09-19T08:50:42.767-04:00The question, today, is where to go from here. Try...The question, today, is where to go from here. Trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube might not be a good strategy. (Prothero is more optimistic on this project than I am; then again, his goals are different as well.) Eric Schansberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147388189415035752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-32060917843542895752012-09-18T23:08:11.976-04:002012-09-18T23:08:11.976-04:00Reading or memorizing the Bible in school is not &...Reading or memorizing the Bible in school is not "mandating religion" and it did us absolutely no 'harm' during the 400+ years that we actually practiced it in the public arena. To the contrary, we became wealthy and powerful. With the exception of an atheist here or there, the principles of biblical Christianity were assumed by the people as foundational to our national identity and as a guide for ethical behavior within society. There was no problem or complaint; they were esteemed as good and necessary. Now, reading the Bible in school is going to hurt people?... Not buying in.Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8241505550351823820.post-23331725227293562422012-09-18T22:54:27.941-04:002012-09-18T22:54:27.941-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Jennifer Buschemeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03506102695904366007noreply@blogger.com