Haiti: earthquakes and bad govt
Prayers to those struggling with the massive earthquake in Haiti...
and more broadly, a prayer that public policy will change in that country (and ours)...
In the introductory class of my two courses yesterday, I happened to mention Haiti both times-- in laying out economics as a way of thinking, using the U.S. sugar policies as an example to illustrate the importance of critical/creative thinking, and pointing to Haitian sugar farmers as one of the losers of our efforts to help wealthy U.S. sugar farmers.
Looking forward, we'll probably see efforts by the U.S. government to send financial aid. But I doubt that we'll a peep from them about changing our sugar policies. Aid? Yes. Trade? No.
That's the sort of garbage we get from a "good" democracy. And then, there is the Haitian government-- and its pathetic history of corruption, cronyism, and statism. Their government has done infinitely more damage than any earthquake. In this context, the government's wealth-destroying policies have made Haiti both more vulnerable to tragedies and less capable of dealing with tragedies.
Hopefully, the Haitian government will turn things around. In the meantime, Christians have the comfort of knowing there's a special place in Hell for this sort of evil.
posted by Eric Schansberg @ 8:05 AM
12 Comments
12 Comments:
I take absolutely no comfort in the belief that persons responsible for the suffering of Haitians have a special place in Hell. This is because I have compassion for all people, but also because I believe that any doctrine of eternal punishment is incompatible with a just and loving God.
This morning I made a contribution to Partners in Health, the group founded by Dr. Paul Farmer that has done outstanding work in fighting TB and AIDS in Haiti and other countries. They are one of a number of excellent aid groups in Haiti that urgently need contributions to help meet the enormous challenges of the earthquake and its aftermath.
Of course, one could argue that being a just and loving God requires just that sort of justice, etc.
It probably bears reiterating that I hope for their repentance and their embrace of the grace of God. There but for the grace of God go I...
I understand that you and I view Scripture quite differently. But biblically, the case for judgment, eternal punishment (if not eternal torment), degrees of punishment in Hell, and so on-- is relatively clear (although often misunderstood or more often, simply unknown).
Pat Robertson said today on CBN that Haiti is being punished because it made a "pact with the Devil".
That also must explain why Wall Street bankers routinely escape 7.0 magnitude earthquakes in lower Manhattan.
Makes perfect sense to me!
Eric, I don't recall anything in the Bible about varying degrees of punishment for the damned, or at least in the NT. I'm curious, would you have a scriptural reference for that? (I do recall references in the NT to varying degrees of reward in Heaven. The OT does not say much one way or the other about the afterlife, as I recall; I have read that the ancient Hebrews did not believe in an afterlife, but I find that difficult to credit.)
Don, I think I agree with you that the thought of the earthquake as divine punishment is hard to accept; earthquakes are the price we pay for living on a geologically active planet (without volcanoes, we wouldn't have an atmosphere). The scriptures say it rains on the just and unjust alike. But in terms of punishment in the hearafter, I would probably agree with Eric that this world does not make sense morally, given a just and loving God, unless there is justice in the next world. Eric and I disagree on the nature (or duration) of the punishment. Interestingly, there is scientific evidence for some kind of judgment after we die, in the form of "life review" visions reported by persons who have had near-death experiences. The alternative would be to abandon a belief in God and the afterlife entirely, and accept a universe with no moral purpose where many people suffer for no reason whatsoever, or at least suffer with no expectation of any consolation beyond that available in this life. That is cold comfort when you think of all the arbitrary and terrible things that happen to people. I'm not willing to abandon a belief in God, partly for that reason.
You are correct that the OT ideas of the afterlife are not as well-defined as those in the NT.
On degrees of punishment in Hell: I don't know that this is an exhaustive list, but here's what I have in my notes: Mk 12:40, Rev 20:12-13, 22:12; Ps 62:12, Pr 14:14, 24:12, Eccl 12:14, Jer 17:9-10, 32:19, I Pet 1:17, Lk 16:25, Mt 11:20-24, and implied by our having to give an account (II Cor 5:10, Mt 12:36, Heb 4:12-13).
In case it was confusing, "special place in Hell" was meant as a metaphor for "degrees of punishment", not a reference to Hell's geography!
It's also important to note that we would/will be judged by our words (Mt 12:36-37), deeds (commission OR omission; Jas 4:17), thoughts (Mt 5:28), motives (I Cor 4:5), and the strength in which we act (Rom 14:23, Heb 11:6).
For believers, I Cor 3:11-15 is related and sobering passage.
Although this position is neither a slam-dunk nor traditional, I lean strongly toward annihilationism-- the idea that there is eternal punishment but not eternal torment.
William, what do you believe-- if there is justice in the afterlife and you & I don't agree?
[Christians have the comfort of knowing there's a special place in Hell for this sort of evil]
From reading the comments, it seems as though you and William agree on a certain level about hell.
In my opinion, it's the word "comfort" that is a little bothersome and misplaced. Although I am thankful for God's justice - after all, the Haitian gov perpetrators of these crimes against humanity have caused much morbidity and mortality - I am not really "comforted" by the fact that if they refuse Christ, they suffer damnation by having to pay for their own sins. I believe in the reality of hell and it's purpose in serving "justice", but receive no real comfort in knowing that people actually do go there.
There is great comfort in knowing that I do not have to go there because J.C. took the punishment I deserved for all the wrong I have done.
Annihilationism makes most sense scripturally, also.
I also am going to give. Samaritan's Purse does a lot of great work in 3rd World countires, and I received a request for emergency aid to Haiti from them today. www.samaritanspurse.com
I believe that when we cross the threshold to the next world, we have or are given a view of our lives that is complete and accurate, and that shows us all of the things we did—good and bad, and what effect they had on other people. In so far as we are evil, we will understand how and why we were evil, and our regret will be complete and terribly sincere. As I mentioned, there is evidence for this in "life after life" experiences. Perhaps that is the limit of our punishment; or maybe something akin to purgatory is in store for us. (That's an ancient Christian belief from the Catholic tradition; it's not explicit in the NT but is found in the Apocrypha or deuterocanonical books found in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles. However, the Episcopal Church does not teach the existence of purgatory; the Articles of Religion found in the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer refer to purgatory as a "fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God." But as you know, I'm not always one for accepting textual authority.) I do not know what happens or what we will do in the next world, but sitting on clouds and strumming golden harps is not what we will do. This life is preparation for what comes next. I think that the forgiveness of God, the salvation brought by Christ, will somehow eventually apply to all people, no matter how evil. (This doctrine, universalism, cannot be proven from scriptures, although 1 Timothy 4:10 perhaps provides some evidence.)
I guess you don't agree so much.
Actually, William, I guess you disagree with the Bible.
Here is what it says. I copied and pasted this from another website because I don't have time to write it all up.
place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).
A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13).
A place of torments - "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).
A place of Sorrows - "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).
A place of everlasting destruction - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).
A place where men are tormented with fire and brimstone - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).
A place where fire is not quenched - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).
A bottomless pit - "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).
A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).
It is ultimately a lake of fire - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).
A place of hopeless of unsatisfied desires - "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24). The rich man wanted water but could not get any.
Janet, I am well aware of all of those verses, and yes, I disagree with the Bible; I do not believe in the Bible in the same way you or Eric believe in the Bible. I am also technically a Unitarian by belief, and I do not accept the atonement theology.
William,
It' so intereseting that you say these two things:
"I think that the forgiveness of God, the salvation brought by Christ, will somehow eventually apply to all people, no matter how evil", and then,
"I do not accept the atonement theology"
It would appear that you believe Christ came to somehow save us from something (you say "the salvation brought by Christ... will apply to all people"), but you do not believe how/what from his recorded words tell us he came to save us (Hell - he took our place - "replacement theology").
Why do you believe anything about him?
Janet, I don't believe Jesus brought salvation by paying the price for our sins. I do not believe it is logical or moral for the suffering or death of an innocent being to have any affect whatsoever on another being's guilt. I do believe in the resurrection—this is one thing that is clearly established by the scriptures and in history—and this is what the Good News is: We all must suffer and die, even Jesus had to suffer and die, but we will always be with God.
"Atonement Theology" is explicitly and firmly established throughout the Old and New Testaments as answer for sin. It's a major theme running through the entire Bible; it's hammered in over and over. How can you read the OT and dney it?
"Without the shedding of Blood, there can be no forgiveness of sin" A just God cannot allow wrongs to go unpunished; it must be paid for. Of course, animal sacrifices in the OT couldn't take away sin, they were merely symbolic of the perfect sacrifice to come in Christ.
You are choosing to believe in the Resurrection but not the Atoning Sacrifice. Both are clearly and absolutely supported as Scriptural truths. Biblically speaking, you can't have one without the other.
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